A new direction for Dolphin 7.1.x/Dolphin Classic - part 2

 Am I reading this correctly?  You are going to go backwards and make the next update of "Dolphin Classic" a beta?   I have said it before, and I won't dwell on it, but this is one of the dumbest strategies I have ever seen in my life.  Exactly what makes you think there will be "a lot more discussion during the process" - are you even listening to your own moderators like Zarcon?  - your community is gone.   Saying that you are "interested in involving community into development" is ridiculously disingenuous and shows how little you know about online communities.   They don't sit around and wait to be at your beck and call when it suddenly fits your plans   When you say that this will make the product "more valuable for us" you really mean "more valuable for you" - you have destroyed the value and hard work of almost everyone else in what was once this "community". 

Now, after blowing more than a whole year you are announcing that Dolphin U is really a "light" product for hobbies - can you really blame people for saying "WTF"?   You have received some wonderful advice from the remnants of this community - the closest I have seen to a "consensus" in the nearly decade I have been here, and you are not listening to a word of it.   I don't know why. 

I'm sure he meant that the next minor release of 7 will be something like 7.2 beta... for some bug testing before it is actually released. They've done  this before, and it worked out OK.

The trouble is, actually getting to that point.  DUH needs to be put on hold long enough to tend to the tickets on 7.1.5, and those that have been shoveled onto the 7.2 pile.  There are some really important tickets to work on.  Not long ago, I was prepared to sink some major capital into a few projects, but the arrested development of the D7 product line has me questioning my own sensibilities in that regard.  Yeah sure, the pro-boonex folks will say that I could just pay someone to apply all the fixes and changes to the code.  I just think that would be a foolish approach, because you end up with Frankensite that can't be updated in the traditional way.

A lot of people paid for D7 licenses.  Boonex has a moral obligation to those customers to tend to the damn D7 tickets.  14 fucking months without an update is unacceptable.

 Perfectly stated

HL, what if Andrew did not think that there is anything to update in the last 14 months...
I mean i agree with you and some modules are in desperate need of a major update.

Interesting. My contender for a different name that would satisfy everyone, including Andrew, is:

DUO

It just occurred to me why Andrew is so determined to ignore the common sense (and near consensus) advice of this community that he dump the name "Dolphin Classic".    Think about it  - he is calling D7.1 "classic" because he wants it to be emphasized  that it is an obsolete version.   That is really the only possible explanation and in a way he is right - a software product - especially a fairly new one like D7.1 that hasn't been updated in over a year really is an obsolete product.     

Dolphin is no longer so much an open source product as it is a "money making scheme" and the "update" they plan for the product is not to fix bugs but rather plug you into it so that you are locked in here and must continually buy updates to make the software work.   I don't think this plot will work - in fact I think it has already failed, but I do think that is what they are thinking. 

The comment I made on the blog post about the latest "alpha" was censored by Andrew, and it was far milder than what I - or almost anyone else has said here.   Basically I just said that from what I had seen, the current version of DU had "close to zero functionality" which is simply a true statement - it doesn't do anything.  I have no ax to grind here -  and if Andrew wants to come back here and explain things better than he has, or show the most minute bit of flexibility or even a tiny bit of evidence that he is listening to this community, than I will certainly listen.   

From what I have seen so far though, I will stand by what I have said here - Boonex is destroying value - and it is your value he is destroying.   Maybe it was done with what he at first thought was good a intention -  to help the mod developers sell more or whatever, but the value you have put into your sites is being destroyed plan and simple. 

I once knew an "old woman" who whined and moaned and found fault with everything.

She had nothing to contribute except criticism and negativity.

She would go away for months at a time, but when "she" came back "she'd" start right in again stirring shit and pointing fingers and trying to disrupt the peace.

I see that "old woman" is back doing "her" best to disrupt the unity of the community. "Her" agenda is unchanged in the last "decade". If this is such a vile place where no one other than her knows anything you would think she would wander away some place more suited to "her" needs.

Way past time to kick "her" to the curb.

Dwain, by your comments, I take it abandoning the Dolphin 7 product for 14 months is perfectly acceptable to you?

In before I post an announcement tomorrow... FIY:

- We decided to make a change of name, since your feedback made us think about better representing our plans and ideas for both Dolphins. So, Dolphin U will stay so, while Dolphin 7 (aka classic) will be named Dolphin PRO. This is to show that Dolphin Pro is a more complete system, which will continue to be developed and supported, yet it may require a somewhat higher technical skill set to be used. 

- Dolphin PRO will switch to "free core and base modules + paid extra modules" licensing model. Since we have about 40 modules on it already we see a significant business feasibility to further actively develop Dolphin PRO.

- There's a definitive list of planned improvements for Dolphin PRO, which I will be announcing tomorrow. 

- Active work on Dolphin PRO will start right after Dolphin U BETA release, which is not too far off, since we do not plan/want to make Dolphin U a full-featured platform at this stage. Dolphin U will be focused on doing only a few things, but doing them very well. 

HL.

I learned after many trial and error attempts dating back to 2007 that my major problem with the various versions of software was always hosting related. Since switching to Zarconia all of those problems are gone. I don't have a modded up site and the mods I do use were created by people I trust who charge reasonable fees and provide impeccable service namely Deano and Modz.

I had tried buying a mod I thought I wanted to enhance membership management, but that developer doesn't even read his email any more and when pressed to reply pretty much stated he was too busy and important to read email.

I personally believe Dolphin 7 has been very stable for some time now, but of course I am not some one expecting to earn a million dollars from it or for it to change my oil, clear acne, help me lose weight or fetch my slippers.

I find it amusing that the same people who only a few months back were demanding the release of Dolphin 8 in any degree of completion knowing full well it wasn't ready are now crying that there hasn't been an update to Dolphin 7 and trashing Dolphin 8. I get a giggle when considering that people accepted the nomenclatures Dolphin 7 and Dolphin 8, but howl about the names Dolphin Classic and Dolphin U. I assume Andrew's attempts to sooth the masses by changing the name to Dolphin Pro will get the same reception.

I don't care what you call it, I did after all pay to have any mention of the name removed from my sites. As long as it works reasonably well I am happy and it does that for me.

For any of you new members of Unity who might happen to be reading this let me give you some advice:

Don't get caught up in the vicious cycle here that so many have fallen into. Don't wait for the next incarnation of Dolphin what's it's name.  Avoid trying to make live sites out of alpha software. Don't expect Dolphin to make you a millionaire.

Simply go with the current stable version of Dolphin 7,.

Load only the modules you need,

Get a proper hosting service like Zarconia and enjoy making you niche on the world wide web.

If you need help or modules ask one of the proven developers for a hand. I highly recommend Deano and modz. I am sure there are other great developers that I haven't used yet as well.

Unity's stated purpose is to bring people together. Keep a smile on your face and be positive. Don't expect more than the software is capable of doing and by all means avoid the cranky old "women" who would surely shit in the mash potatoes if you invited them to Thanksgiving dinner.

Dolphin 7.1.4, with Deano and Modz modules and Zarconia hosting is doing exactly what I expect it to. Dolphin U is alpha and I surely don't expect alpha software to run a live site. For that I am happy with the stable version of Dolphin 7 by any other name.

My main problem is deciding exactly what I want it to do as my ideas are always changing, but that is no shortcoming on any one's part , but my own.

 "Dwaine" - what an incredibly rude person you are - what a coward and a weakling.   Do you always call people with whom you disagree "old ladies" - I know people of low character like you who get their "Internet balls" because they are so pathetic in real life.   I may not be a developer, but I have more than 100,000 followers on social networks and various communities, so I know a bit about community management and I know a troll when I see one.   Your name calling is designed to intimidate others from expressing their opinion.   I can do nothing about people like you except to say you are not a person I would ever want to know in real life, I would never want to do any kind of business with - ever.   Please go back to your porn sites or whatever you are building - I want nothing to do with you.   

For everyone else who participated intelligently in these discussions you made a difference.   I am going to wait till tomorrow's announcement to see what Andrew says about our future, but here is the relevant part from the earlier part of this post:

Dolphin Classic update (likely 7.2) will come out shortly after Dolphin U beta. There will be Dolphin Classic betas and a lot more open discussion during the process to make sure we're prioritising things according to both the community needs and our strategy.  We are also very interested in the iThe dea of involving community into development of both Dolphins. For that to happen effectively we need to switch Dolphin Classic licensing policy to the same scheme as we plan for Dolphin U, which is something we hope to be able to accomplish in 7.2. . . . Now, if you think about Classic and upcoming licensing change, you may see how valuable this product is for us.

The important part of this in my opinion is that your licence will be changing.   For some, that will be fine but if I read that right there will be "multiple betas" before that even happens.   Some might not be able to make this change for purely technical reasons, and others might find the new "scheme" (Andrew's words, not mine) to be unacceptable for other reasons - we will have to wait and see.   That may give a tiny number of people here a support and growth path, but I think it is safe to say that regardless of what the new name is there are now three unsupported products D6, D7.0 and D7 1.   As I mentioned, the support board for D6 and D7.1 have already been removed here - apparently without discussion, and I believe the people who developed on D7.1 will soon be in more or less the same boat. 

 Well said!! I totally agree with this.

Disappointed :(

After hearing DU will be only a blog type package instead of a full social networking app..cause i see a potential in it.

Any way if andrew you will update dolphin pro plz don't forget to make it responsive and adding the internal sharing feature which DU have right now.

@moonsoon2u - I can pretty much tell you that making Dolphin Pro 'responsive' is not going to happen anytime soon. Your best bet right now is to search the Market for responsive templates. There are several out there and some that are Free.

 am not in hurry :p i can wait till DU will be a full social networking product ;) thats what i want right now actually

 That's just it. DU is not going to be a 'full' social networking product like Dolphin 'Pro' is. Considering DU is not ready for live sites, there is very minimal by default (see Andrew's reference of 'Light solution'), there are no modules built for it, you may be waiting a long time. I am not saying that enough time, development, and/or money cannot get you a DU site that is close to Dolphin Pro.. I just stating the facts as of right now.

 i agree. i just need photo, video, chat, messenger modules along with the current DU and am gud to go on rampage :p just 1 feature of internal sharing make me choose DU over Dpro. it make it an independent website which is not depending on facebook or twitter to get page views.

 RE.

 Dwain, your shortsightedness is overwhelming.... what a waste of typing.  Have you even bothered to look through  the current tickets in trac for milestones 7.1.5 and 7.2?  Let me be the first to tell you, that none of them are server related, so your rant about hosting is as irrelevant to this topic as it gets. 

Let me tell you about a few tickets I entered myself:

Ticket #3369: Upgrade tinymce to latest version   - There are some really good reasons for doing this.

Ticket #3437: Replace swfupload - There really are better choices these days

There is also a ticket that moves javascript calls from the wall module classes to the template files, so that the outline can be properly adapted to mobile templates. Currently, that is not possible without altering source files.  This simple change will allow switching to a completely mobile optimized template when mobile browsers are detected.  I was working on a mobile template to give to this community at no charge, and ran into this small issue.  You can see where I was going with this here: http://houstonlively.com/?skin=mobile2   I shelved this project, because I would not be able to release it without these source file changes.

That's just a few.  There are 135 tickets attached to the 7.1.5 milestone. many of them were actually entered by Boonex staff.  They are not trivial.

Dwaine I'm glad you have found such bliss in your Dolphin world.  In Texas we call it 'Contented Cow Syndrome'.  Some of us like to see things constantly in motion and moving forward .... improving..... evolving into a better and better.  If being a contented cow is what you do best, so be it.... but that's not what this topic is about.

I am sorry your glass appears empty while mine is full. Have you considered using a smaller glass?

I don't see how a new name for Dolphin 7 eases confusion, but it should handle worry. But the thing is, Dolphin U and Dolphin 7 are different beasts, and they're incompatible. Dolphin U should really be under its own name, like it was with Shark and Poseidon/Trident. Those three are all powerful names that can fit what Dolphin U is. Or call it some other ocean-related name.

I simply worry that people will still view Dopphin U as the next version or be utterly lost when choosing between the two. They'll think that Pro is the advanced version of U, and then run themselves into a wall if they try and switch. That kind of mess. If one was called Shark for example, it'd be clear that they're separate products with different goals. Shark has some community functions, but it's more of a core to build any kind of site. Dolphin for the social network and niche communities, and Shark for businesses, blogs, shopping, etc. With an ultra-modular core (heck, even the Profile feafire is a module), it can be the starting point for any project, and its builders allow for probably the easiest CMS I've ever messed around with.

That's all I'll say.

We have at least gotten to the point in these discussions where we all have a better understanding of the issues involved and our it affects our particular situation - whether or not we agree with what should happen next.  Here is my take on what is going on and where we are now:

1.  The original plans for DU were ridiculously optimistic and essentially failed.  That is what Boonex worked on in leiu of what would have normally been routine updates for the past 14 months.   It had been the plan - not communicated as far as I know - for everyone currently on D7.1 to upgrade to that directly.   That is why you are seeing the repeated assertions that the first DU beta must be released before the next version and bug fixes for D7.    What should have been a quiet, side R&D project became their central focus

2.  DU - which started with ambitious plans for a new builder, multiple account capability, and a fully integrated market has been downgraded to a limited special purpose programs that is more appropriate for "hobbyists". 

3.  The plans for DU have been down scaled, but the plans for the integrated market have not.   What Boonex is now calling "Dolphin Pro" is not really the D7.1.x version two.   The next version will have a different license and so is a different product, almost by definition. 

4.  Anyone currently using D7.1.x will have to make a decision whether to "fork" - in other words, go it alone as a PHP/mySQL script or accept the terms of the new Boonex license and the lock-in to their market.  Since we haven't seen this new license yet we can't necessarily make a rational decision on which way to go. If you stick with D7.1.x under the current license you will never again receive another update from Boonex nor will you have the support of community - assuming it can survive in a diminished form.  If you go with the new license you may lose some of your rights, and depending on how that market works, you may even lose your independence from them.

5.  Regardless of what is decided by each indivual, the eventual outcome will be three unsupported products - D6, D7.0 and D7.1 (the current version).   Boonex has been confusing the issue again by referring to the current version of D7.1.x as "Dolphin Pro" - but Dolphin Pro will be the product under the new license.   People will have the right to stay at their current version of D7.1 if they don't accept the terms or conditions of the new license.  I would prefer that the "Dolpin Pro" name be used for the new license / market product and not refer to D7.1.

I was project or program manager for a big part of my career, and this is simply a project that has gotten way off track and maybe someone is waking up to the fact that some leadership is needed here, but regardless, there are some basic business issues involved here that are different for all of us, but still require that we all have access to - most important, of course, is the exact terms and conditions of that new license, a clear understanding of how the market will operate and what will be able to work outside of it, and development schedules - yes, schedules - that is what grown up IT projects do.

My personal plan is to continue development of my D7.09 site - it far from perfect, but matches its application well and most features I need can be added through PHP blocks.   My other D7.1 site is a total mess, as I have already mentioned so the direct upgrade to DU might have even been an advantage but after reviewing that it was obvious that was never going to happen.

Honestly I am amazed that this community wasn't up in arms about six months ago - these are serious issues that affect all of us.

 Nathan - I didn't see your post before I posted mine but you are correct - Boonex has confused the issue even more with the "Dolphin Pro" name which they are apparently using for two different products - the pre "new license" and post "new licence" versions of Dolphin.   What was called DU is an entirely different beast all together.   I tried to address in my post. 

@Calrtrade: It seems like we're all doomed whatever we do, huh? :D 

@HL: Yes, there was a long period of no updates to Dolphin PRO and some issues are getting rather pressing. We'll get on to it as soon as we can.

@Nathan: Different name may or may not be a good way. It is still Dolphin, see. A lot of things are different, but a lot of things are same or very similar. Some kinds of modules would only need small changes to adapt for U. 

@moonsoon2u and all: Dolphin U core structure is a lot more modern and promising than that of the Pro, but it will take a lot of time for the whole package and ecosystem to actually do what Pro does now. That doesn't mean that U is a "dumped down" version. It's a "lighter" solution for more focused ideas and it is very likely to require a lot less technical background to operate. I think a good analogy would be a petrol sports car (Pro) and an electric car (U).  Electric car can't do everything petrol car does, but it excels in certain aspects and has a massive untapped potential that is rather different from what petrol car can ever hope to offer. Which car would you choose? Perhaps, petrol car for race days and long trips, while electric car would be for shopping and commuting? And again, gradually you would see hybrids, petrol backed EVs and ultimately - affordable electric sport cars. 

 @Andrew - No "we" are not doomed but without leadership the product certainly is doomed - and you have lost more than a year.   There is a principle in business called "mitigation" - when you harm another party you do your best to reduce that harm, not increase it.  All this community wants is simple information so they can make rational business decisions -  it is not as complicated as you are making it. 

I never got an answer to my question as to why the forums for Dolphin 6 and Dolphin 7.0 were removed - is that because those products have been abandoned?  Was that intended to send a signal that people with those versions are no longer welcome in this community?  It seems to me that if there is a new license that will be required for "Dolphin Pro" then it is a separate product from what is now D7.1  and some people may elect to not enter into that agreement.  They are not necessarily "doomed" but they will have to fork and eventually they will find it harder to get support from this shrinking  community.   

Why don't you do this - why don't you just publish the text of your new license agreement, and then people can simply read it and see if they have any concerns or questions.  That way people can make their own development plans without having to guess what you are thinking. 

I feel the renaming to Dolphin Pro is a worthwhile change and Andrew is listening.

But I still believe DUH -> DU Houston   is a DUmb name. It does not conjour up anything to suggest what it is.

Andrew, please rename it as Dolphin Personal to reflect what it is - a lightweight product with some Dolphin elements than can be used by the technically challenged.

@andrew name dolphin u as "dolphin swift" due to its characteristics ;)

ill tell you the secret behind this WAR about name. Mostly those people are complaining who have invested too much on 3rd party modules and they feel Dolphin classic would mean no more modules update from the module makers but after getting it named as Dolphin Pro mean ..module market is back and they will get update from them. Yes i agree 14 months is a way long time for any update. My friend made Clipbucket and he is also running biggest video sharing website in our country. I see him always releasing new updates every now and then. That would have been the case with dolphin cause its way older than Clipbucket. Only difference is he have a team which is continuously working with him. Aim should not be money making but it should be you created something every 1 would say that was the guy who made it possible ;)  

Dolphin 6 and 7 were not removed - they we moved to "Archive" folder, but are still operational. This is only natural for old versions. Does it mean they were abandoned? No, that means they're old versions and there're new versions available, with upgrade scripts and instructions.

There will be no need to acquire a new license for Dolphin Pro or Dolphin U, since current licenses would be covering them - both in terms of use and in terms of material expense. If you're concerned about terms for new customers - the short versions is: "free core and some modules, paid extra modules, no visible attribution required".

 Once of the most important goals that we pursued in developing Dolphin U and will pursue in Dolphin PRO is a switch to granular updates that would allow us to push new features more frequently and webmasters to install them without too much hassle. 

I second this.  Two different products need to have two distinct names.  It will avoid confusion on the part of potential customers and reduce support questions/tickets.

Say what so ever DU is just a testing base for new features which will be implemented on D-Pro on later stage any how ;) So andrew could not have tested those thing directly on D-Pro cause the core is not compatible for new features/ajax. you been asking for live comments on your website but you didn't know that you could not have that feature due to old structure of D-pro. So DU was the only solution to test those features and later apply them on D-pro :)

 RE:

I third all this.  The old abandoned names of Shark, Poseidon, or Trident are all MUCH better than DU.  Personally, I like Shark.

@Andrew Boon  Maybe you should open up a little and tell us why you are so emotionally attached the the Dolphin name, that you have to name all of your products the same, because none of us see the logic in it.  There isn't any logic in it.  This is clearly some emotional attachment you have to the name.  Maybe if we understood it, we'd understand.

The consensus is, give DUH a sporty new name... Shark has my vote..  As long as you want to talk about cars, what if Chevrolet in naming their sports cars, called one of their models a "Malibu U" instead of a Camaro or a Corvette?  They're all cars, and all do essentially the same thing, but the sportier versions really deserve a special name that is completely separate form other, lower performing models. 

Why don't you guys realize that establishing a brand name isn't easy. Google dolphin you will land here but Google shark you will endup in Australia -_- simple logic so i suggested Dolphin swift cause its light script ..you can suggest some thing which include dolphin with it.

RE:

 Perfect!

Dolphin swift???  Sorry... you are banished from the naming committee. 

lol. Dolphin Ultra swift :p or Snail :D

 Nope, if you Google "dolphin" you will find pages about the mobile browser, the football team and the mammal. If you Google "Boonex Dolphin" then you will find this. If they named a product Shark it would probably take a couple of hours and then Googling "Boonex Shark" would bring you here.

Rob you mentioned them damaging the brand.. They've let people who they don't even know name websites, hosting companies and development firms using not only their products name but also their company name in the title and haven't said a word. You think they care about protecting the brand?

If you're going to call 7 "Dolphin Classic" then why don't you call the new one "New Dolphin". Look how well it worked for Coke!

I googled Dolphin and Boonex Dolphin was nowhere on the first page, several hits on dolphins in general and then one on Dolphin browser for Android and an emulator for Nintendo video game consoles.

When I googled Boonex Dolphin, then it is top of the list.  When I googled Boonex Shark, I got a post at the top of the list in which Andrew Boon stated on 20th of February 2013 :

"We see the future of Dolphin as a Dolphin 8 and continued development of Dolphin 7. Dolphin 8 is still based on Dolphin 7, so at soem [sic] stage they will merge, but it will happen gradually. We do not plan to push out completely different systems anymore. The Market and current clients are becoming all too valuable to disrupt."

Click on the BLOG link at the top.  Andrew Boon made a formal announcement that the current Dolphin will be called Dolphin PRO.  Better perhaps but I would still like to see a clear distinction between the two products by giving Dolphin U a new name.

 Yeah, I saw all that. I was kidding, New Coke was a horrible failure.

Oh, sorry.  Yes, and Coke then released the old coke as Coke Classic; and that came to mind when Boonex announced they were going to call the old Dolphin, Dolphin Classic.  Coke was hoping that they could keep both but the New Coke fizzled out.

 RE

 Believe it or not, at one point that is exactly what someone suggested, and I pointed out the Coke incident to them.

A few suggestions for Boonex:
1) revert the naming from "Dolphin Pro" back to "Dolphin 7" and "Dolphin U" back to "Dolphin 8".  Also continue to tell everyone that D8 will include radical code changes (compared to D7.1) and will probably not successfully penetrate the CMS market until 2016 at the earliest.
2) focus 75% of your development time on what's important in the next 6 months, namely supporting Boonex's current clients by continuing to improve Dolphin 7.1.x to make it the best Social Networking CMS on the market.
3) begin to implement some of your DU ideas into D7.2 development, such as: a) improving the core code to easily allow approved security plus bug-fix updates quickly, b) enforcing a rule that no 3rd party modules can alter the core code directly, and c) invite 3rd party developers to submit suggestions to improve the core code.

 RE

 That is the worst possible thing to do. DUH is an entirely different product than Dolphin 7.  Doing what you suggest, means that the D7 product can never evolve above major version 7.  By keeping the products separate, it leaves the door open for D7 to someday advance to D8.  That is why DUH should have an entirely different name... like 'Shark'.

Shark is the perfect name. In the marine world, a Dolphin will often win a battle with a shark because it is smarter.  However, if a shark grows big enough and strong enough, it will eventually kill any dolphin that challenges it. 

Put an HTML editor for the video, photo, etc, descriptions so people can add links and images in their descriptions like youtube.

Are the apps going to be updated too? With things like "join from app" and stuff like that? All of the functions on the desktop should be included in the app so when I market the app, I don't have to worry about whether or not they will take the time to go to the website.

 RE:

 Let me get this straight... You want to ba able to use html in photo and video descriptions, so that you can add photos and videos to help describe the photos and videos, then you want people to be able to add countless thousands of external links to your site, to make it easier than ever for people to leave your site.. Does that about sum it up?

Boonex: if you do decide to do this, please include an OFF switch.

Andrew is awake: http://www.boonex.com/n/what-to-expect-in-the-next-dolphin-pro

Now it's time to really turn the screws.

HL, I hear what you're saying and respect your right to share your opinion with everyone on this forum.  From my perspective, there are a lot of "build" numbers available between D7.1.4 and D7.9.9 (over 80 if they use them all), which would allow for many update releases... spanning many years. Personally, I don't want Boonex to radically change D7 in a short time.  I very much prefer they continue to improve it incrementally, within a reasonable timeline, and in such a way that "build" updates are relatively easy to integrate into working sites.

As for D8, since joining Boonex 3 years ago, I've always thought of it as a major design and hence code revision to the Dolphin platform so it continues to make sense for me to think of DU and D8 as the same thing.